[reposted for the benefit of anyone wondering what Linus was replying to]
On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, Oliver Xymoron wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> > I use revision control at work. We use CVS on steroids - CVS with a lo tof
> > the extensions available, and with a "mad scientists helper" program
> > called "igor".
> [...]
> > And with a chip that _includes_ a compiler, we have some debuggers that I
> > don't think exist anywhere else on the planet. Which turns out very useful
> > when the first version of the silicon doesn't actually act the way we
> > thought it would ;)
>
> I figured as much on both counts, actually - I was mostly razzing you.
>
> > So I've seen both. And I still don't think they make for better code. They
> > sometimes make for more expedient release schedules. Which is not the same
> > thing at all.
>
> I think the only one who's argued from the release schedule POV is Jeff
> Merkey. The rest are arguing that debuggers are sometimes useful tools[1].
>
> Tools are tools. They don't make better code. They make better code easier
> if used properly. Companies are using drills and lathes and table saws and
> power sanders to produce furniture that doesn't compare to antiques made
> with hand tools[2]. Does this mean we should make everything by hand? No,
> it just means we need to be focused on craftsmanship rather than cost.
> I think the current development culture already has that focus.
>
> Fact is, the kernel debugging tools are, just like drivers, best
> maintained with the kernel proper.
>
> Either DM or AV referred to K&P's _Practice of Programming_ (p118) in
> defense of the avoiding debugger argument. If you have it handy, give that
> chapter a read. They devote pretty much their entire chapter on debugging
> to the printf school and most of the book lines up with your code quality
> philosophy but they still conclude that "a debugger can be of enormous
> value, however, and you should certainly include one in your debugging
> toolkit.."
>
> [1] Compare TM's core debuggers to the usefulness of something like IKD
> for early work on a new port.
>
> [2] Note that you're only looking at the antiques that were built well
> enough to be around for comparison.
>
> --
> "Love the dolphins," she advised him. "Write by W.A.S.T.E.."
>
>
-- "Love the dolphins," she advised him. "Write by W.A.S.T.E.."- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
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