Re: Future devfs plans (sorry for previous incomplete message)

[Trent Lloyd]

Wouldn't a possible solution to do this to develop an extension to tmpfs to
catch files accessed that don't exist etc and use that in conjuction
with udev?

> 	[Sorry for the previous incomplete message on lkml.  It was
> the first time I've seen xterm segfault in a long time.]
> 
> 	Please do not delete devfs, as it provides important
> functionality unavailable elsewhere, and I have some plans to improve
> its implementation further.
> 
> Part 1: Advantages of devfs
> 
> 	devfs allows for creation of devices when user level programs
> need them rather than based on "hot plug" or modprobe-related events,
> neither of which do not exist for many devices and do not necessarily
> indicate need for the driver.  This allow distributions to include a
> support for many more devices, without wasting a lot of unswappable
> memory, which adds up when there are a lot of potential devices and,
> in some cases, can make Linux perform better on platforms with limited
> RAM.  I can think of four classes of such devices:
> 
> 	1. hardware that does not generate "hot plug" events, such as
> 	   a conventional floppy disk drive.  This way, distributions
> 	   can have support for all of these devices turned on without
> 	   bloating the kernel.
> 
> 	2. software devices, such as /dev/loop.  Again, this way
> 	   distributions can include support for any such devices that
> 	   may be developed without a substantial cost in unswappable RAM.
> 
> 	3. hardware that is incidentally plugged in, but which might not
> 	   be used in the current session from boot to shutdown.  With the
> 	   increasing popularity of USB and firewire, a user might have a
> 	   "webcam", a still digital camera, a digital video converter, a
> 	   flash reader, a printer, a scanner and an external disk that
> 	   happen attached to the computer's USB network, with the user
> 	   having no intention of using any of them during the current
> 	   session from boot to shutdown.  This way, the cost of leaving
> 	   some things plugged in for convenience is reduced.
> 
> 	4. user level disk partitioning, which I've used for years, shrinking
> 	   the kernel a bit, and possibly enabling one to avoid spinning
> 	   up disks that are not going to be used.
> 
> 	In addition, devfs's use of names rather than number for
> device identification in the kernel has the potential in the future to
> help avoid issues of device ID number collisions, the "Linux assigned
> names and numbers authority", and so on.  System administrators that
> do not like using devfs names directly can use the mechanisms provided
> by devfs user level software to map to device names that they do like.
> 
> 	In any software, there is always a limit point to the
> "mechanism versus policy" slogan where the complexity costs of
> providing more generality are believe to outweigh the benefits for the
> near future, especially if further generality could be added later if
> the need were to arrise.  For example, most ethernet devices are named
> "eth%d", although we could conceivably add a translation layer for
> that in the future.  I believe that at some point in the distant
> future, as part of a rearrangement of the distinctions between block
> devices, char devices and device mappers, the method for connecting
> the string passed to devfs_register() and the file name that
> ultimately appears in /dev might change, but removing devfs in the
> meantime would do more to impede such an effort and also would be
> throwing the baby out with the bath water due to other advantages of
> devfs discussed above.
> 
> 
> Part 2: Future plans for devfs
> 
> 	Some time ago, I posted patches to replace the stock devfs
> implementation with a much smaller one based on a specialized fork of
> ramfs, replacing the devfs daemon with a facility for having the
> kernel exec a helper program on devfs events.  The kernel code was
> about a fourth the size of stock devfs, and the user level code was
> also reduced by a similar factor.  I use slightly updated version of
> that system on several systems every day, under 2.6.7.  I can post
> updated patches for this, but I also plan to implement some change
> soon.
> 
> 	I plan to split out the functionality for invoking a user
> level helper program on attempts to find or create a file, which
> should provide the following advantages:
> 
> 	1. non-devfs configurations will be able to have demand loading
> 	   of device drivers that devfs systems currently enjoy.
> 
> 	2. The kernel memory footprint costs of CONFIG_DEVFS will be
> 	   even smaller, although the size of CONFIG_DEVFS +
> 	   CONFIG_lookup_helper will probably be slightly more than
> 	   that of my current mini-devfs.
> 
> 	3. It may provide a daemonless alternative to autofs for some
> 	   simple but common uses.
> 
> 	4. It will probably at least take us a step toward kicking dnotify
> 	   out to a demand loaded module (hey, it's unswappable memory that
> 	   every system currently uses, every byte counts).
> 
> 	5. It will probably provide a more general mechanism for
> 	   implementing dnotify-like systems that people periodically post
> 	   to the linux-kernel mailing list.
> 
> 	I have not yet written this vaporware, partly because I'm still
> pondering the question of whether the facility for exec'ing a user
> level program should be done as a few new lines in ramfs, a fork of
> ramfs, or an extentsion and restructuring of dnotify.  It should not
> be many lines of code.  It's just that I want to get it right.
> 
> 	Doing this as a ramfs variant would seem to contain the
> changes and assure the non-users of this facility that there would be
> no cost to them.  So why not do it as a ramfs variant?  Alas, doing
> the user level helper facility as a ramfs variant would require adding
> a parameter to inode_operations.lookup() because we need to filter out
> the lookup event that occurs when an inode is being created.
> Otherwise, in certain cases, loading a module that registers multiple
> devices can cause a deadlock when the module's initial registration of
> the device causes the devfs helper to block on trying to load the same
> module again.  Also, I wonder if there might be some use for layering
> this facility on top of other file systems, such as /proc or /sys or
> arbitrary storage file systems, but I haven't yet been able to come up
> with any example.  So, I think that making some general interface that
> both dnotify and this facility could be clients of will probably be
> the best approach, but there are definitely pros and cons to this
> choice, and keeping that code small is something that I want to be
> careful about.
> 
> 	I can post a new mini-devfs patch if there is interest,
> although it may be the weekend before I have time to do even that.
> 
> 	In the meantime, please do not delete devfs.  Thanks in
> advance.
> 
>                     __     ______________ 
> Adam J. Richter        \ /
> adam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx      | g g d r a s i l
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/

-- 
Trent Lloyd <lathiat@xxxxxx>
Bur.st Networking Inc.
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/