Re: [BUG] APM resume breakage from 2.6.18-rc1 clocksource changes

[Roman Zippel]

Hi,

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006, Thomas Gleixner wrote:

> > > It is not illusionary at all and we have to find a way to handle this.
> > > 
> > > Forcing time keeping to be bound on some interrupt handling is the wrong
> > > design and in the way of tickless systems.
> > 
> > So what is the correct design?
> > Especially for tickless system it's vital for precise timekeeping that the 
> > timekeeping code knows what the timer interrupt code does.
> 
> Err. Why needs the time keeping code to know what the next timer event
> will be ? The time keeping code must not care at all about it. And there
> is nothing vital at all.
> 
> Time keeping code reads from a given source and does the necessary
> adjustments when NTP is active. There is no relation to an interrupt
> event at all. At the very end it boils down to a linear equation which
> is recalculated at the synchronization points.
> 
> The timer interrupt itself is not a synchronization point.

If the timer interrupt is not a synchronization point, what is?

> At any synchronization point you store the current time as seen by the
> time keeping code for reference and calculate the deviation from the
> reference time line. Until the next synchronization point you apply the
> recalculated correction to the readout and it does not matter at all
> whether there are 0, 10 or 1000 timer interrupts between those points
> and whether the delta between those interrupts is constant or not.

Well, it does matter, otherwise the recent fix woudn't have been needed.
The timekeeping doesn't care much where synchronizations point comes from, 
but it can do a much better job, if it knows when they come.
Without knowing this the timekeeping code has to do extra work and has to 
be either optimistic or assume the worst case, neither is good for precise 
timekeeping, the first causes extra jitter, the latter very slow 
adjustments.

For example what we can do now is to provide per cpu clock sources for 
asynchronous multiprocessing systems, so they can make use of the fast tsc 
access. The problem here is one should target for small jitter and quick 
adjustments to have some margin for the worst cases, but this also means 
they at least need to know about the synchronization points and it would 
be even better to be able insert a few.

> > > When there is a system where the time source is bound to an interrupt
> > > event then the handling code for that time source has to cope with the
> > > problem instead of enforcing this not generally valid scenario on
> > > everything. We can of course add helpers into the generic part of the
> > > time keeping code to make this easier.
> > 
> > I'm not sure I'm following, could you please illustrate with an example?
> 
> An example is time keeping via a periodic interrupt which does not allow
> to readout intermediate values. Thats the only case where you want that
> the increment of the internal time is as close as possible to the point
> where the event happens. This is a property of this particular time
> source not of the general time keeping code. If its necessary to have
> some infrastructure for such cases in the generic code, I'm not
> opposing. 
> 
> I'm just opposing the general tight coupling of the time keeping to
> timer interrupts.

Timekeeping needs control of something, interrupts are the general 
mechanism for asynchronous events. (Unless I'm missing something) your 
clockevent concept is far too complex, simple clocksources only need to 
export a shareable interrupt source, which the timekeeping code can use to 
synchronize.
If by "tight coupling" you mean the current hardcoded timer interrupt I 
agree, but I still don't see that the clockevent stuff is really a better 
solution.

> Vs. the original problem of resume ordering. It simply has to be
> structured in a way that the essential fixups are done _before_ anything
> uses the values. If this is not the case then we have to fix this
> problem instead of proposing that time keeping has to be coupled to
> timer interrupts.
> 
> > > The majority of machines has stand alone time sources and there is no
> > > need to enforce artificial interrupt relations on them.
> > 
> > What do you mean with "artificial interrupt relations"?
> 
> Binding the time source to an interrupt event. There is no need to do so
> at all when you have a continous clock source like TSC, pm_timer, PPC
> incrementer, ... 
> 
> Why should the time keeping code care when the next interrupt goes off ?

_Precise_ timekeeping.

> > > Please accept that the "tick" is not the holy grail of Linux. We have
> > > already way too much historic tick ballast all over the place, so we
> > > really want to avoid that when we design replacement functionality.
> > 
> > What do you mean with the "holy grail" of "tick"?
> 
> Well, I have the feeling - maybe I misunderstand you - that your idea of
> time keeping is affixed around the tight coupling of time keeping and
> timer interrupt which is the tick in the current implementation.

I don't care how coupling is done (well, I do like a good compromise 
between simplicity and performace), but the timekeeping needs to 
synchronize to something.

bye, Roman
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