Re: [PATCH 2/4] of: DT quirks infrastructure

[Peter Hurley]

On 02/20/2015 10:02 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote:
> Hi Peter,
> 
>> On Feb 20, 2015, at 17:00 , Peter Hurley <peter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> On 02/20/2015 09:35 AM, Ludovic Desroches wrote:
>>> On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 09:21:38AM -0500, Peter Hurley wrote:
>>>> On 02/19/2015 12:38 PM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 19, 2015, at 19:30 , Frank Rowand <frowand.list@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/19/2015 9:00 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Frank,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 19, 2015, at 18:48 , Frank Rowand <frowand.list@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2/19/2015 6:29 AM, Pantelis Antoniou wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 18, 2015, at 19:31 , Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +While this may in theory work, in practice it is very cumbersome
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +for the following reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1. The act of selecting a different boot device tree blob requires
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +a reasonably advanced bootloader with some kind of configuration or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +scripting capabilities. Sadly this is not the case many times, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +bootloader is extremely dumb and can only use a single dt blob.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You can have several bootloader builds, or even a single build with
>>>>>>>>>>>> something like appended DTB to get an appropriate DTB if the same binary
>>>>>>>>>>>> will otherwise work across all variants of a board.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, the same DTB will not work across all the variants of a board.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wasn't on about the DTB. I was on about the loader binary, in the case
>>>>>>>>>> the FW/bootloader could be common even if the DTB couldn't.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To some extent there must be a DTB that will work across all variants
>>>>>>>>>> (albeit with limited utility) or the quirk approach wouldn't workâ
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thatâs not correct; the only part of the DTB that needs to be common
>>>>>>>>> is the model property that would allow the quirk detection logic to fire.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, there is a base DTB that will work on all variants, but that only means
>>>>>>>>> that it will work only up to the point that the quirk detector method
>>>>>>>>> can work. So while in recommended practice there are common subsets
>>>>>>>>> of the DTB that might work, they might be unsafe.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For instance on the beaglebone the regulator configuration is different
>>>>>>>>> between white and black, it is imperative you get them right otherwise
>>>>>>>>> you risk board damage.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So it's not necessarily true that you need a complex bootloader.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +2. On many instances boot time is extremely critical; in some cases
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +there are hard requirements like having working video feeds in under
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +2 seconds from power-up. This leaves an extremely small time budget for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +boot-up, as low as 500ms to kernel entry. The sanest way to get there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +is by removing the standard bootloader from the normal boot sequence
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +altogether by having a very small boot shim that loads the kernel and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +immediately jumps to kernel, like falcon-boot mode in u-boot does.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Given my previous comments above I don't see why this is relevant.
>>>>>>>>>>>> You're already passing _some_ DTB here, so if you can organise for the
>>>>>>>>>>>> board to statically provide a sane DTB that's fine, or you can resort to
>>>>>>>>>>>> appended DTB if it's not possible to update the board configuration.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Youâre missing the point. I canât use the same DTB for each revision of the
>>>>>>>>>>> board. Each board is similar but itâs not identical.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think you've misunderstood my point. If you program the board with the
>>>>>>>>>> relevant DTB, or use appended DTB, then you will pass the correct DTB to
>>>>>>>>>> the kernel without need for quirks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I understand that each variant is somewhat incompatible (and hence needs
>>>>>>>>>> its own DTB).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In theory it might work, in practice this does not. Ludovic mentioned that they
>>>>>>>>> have 27 different DTBs in use at the moment. At a relatively common 60k per DTB
>>>>>>>>> thatâs 27x60k = 1.6MB of DTBs, that need to be installed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> < snip >
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or you can install the correct DTB on the board.  You trust your manufacturing line
>>>>>>>> to install the correct resistors.  You trust your manufacturing line to install the
>>>>>>>> correct kernel version (eg an updated version to resolve a security issue).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought the DT blob was supposed to follow the same standard that other OS's or
>>>>>>>> bootloaders understood.  Are you willing to break that?  (This is one of those
>>>>>>>> ripples I mentioned in my other emails.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Trust no-one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is one of those things that the kernel community doesnât understand which makes people
>>>>>>> who push product quite mad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Engineering a product is not only about meeting customer spec, in order to turn a profit
>>>>>>> the whole endeavor must be engineered as well for manufacturability.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, you can always manually install files in the bootloader. For 1 board no problem.
>>>>>>> For 10 doable. For 100 I guess you can hire an extra guy. For 1 million? Guess what,
>>>>>>> instead of turning a profit youâre losing money if you only have a few cents of profit
>>>>>>> per unit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not installing physical components manually.  Why would I be installing software
>>>>>> manually?  (rhetorical question)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Because on high volume product runs the flash comes preprogrammed and is soldered as is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having a single binary to flash to every revision of the board makes logistics considerably
>>>>> easier.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having to boot and tweak the bootloader settings to select the correct dtb (even if itâs present
>>>>> on the flash medium) takes time and is error-prone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Factory time == money, errors == money.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No knobs to tweak means no knobs to break. And a broken knob can have pretty bad consequences
>>>>>>> for a few million units. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you produce a few million units before testing that the first one off the line works?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The first one off the line works. The rest will get some burn in and functional testing if youâre
>>>>> lucky. In many cases where the product is very cheap it might make financial sense to just ship
>>>>> as is and deal with recalls, if youâre reasonably happy after a little bit of statistical sampling.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hardware is hard :)
>>>>
>>>> I'm failing to see how this series improves your manufacturing process at all.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Won't you have to provide the factory with different eeprom images for the
>>>>   White and Black?  You _trust_ them to get that right, or more likely, you
>>>>   have process control procedures in place so that you don't get 1 million Blacks
>>>>   flashed with the White eeprom image.
>>>>
>>>> 2. The White and Black use different memory technology so it's not as if the
>>>>   eMMC from the Black will end up on the White SMT line (or vice versa).
>>>>
>>>> 3  For that matter, why wouldn't you worry that all the microSD cards intended
>>>>   for the White were accidentally assembled with the first 50,000 Blacks; at
>>>>   that point you're losing a lot more than a few cents of profit. And that has
>>>>   nothing to do with what image you provided.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As you said, we can imagine many reasons to have a failure during the
>>> production, having several DTB files will increase the risk.
>>
>> It's interesting that you don't see the added complexity of open-coding
>> the i2c driver or mixing DTS fragments for different designs as increased risk
>> (for us all).
>>
>>
> 
> You donât have to use it.

> diff --git a/arch/arm/mach-omap2/Makefile b/arch/arm/mach-omap2/Makefile
> index 5d27dfd..02129e7 100644
> --- a/arch/arm/mach-omap2/Makefile
> +++ b/arch/arm/mach-omap2/Makefile
> @@ -259,6 +259,11 @@ obj-$(CONFIG_MACH_CRANEBOARD)		+= board-am3517crane.o
>  
>  obj-$(CONFIG_MACH_SBC3530)		+= board-omap3stalker.o
>  
> +# DT quirks
> +ifneq ($(CONFIG_OF_DYNAMIC),)
> +obj-$(CONFIG_SOC_AM33XX)		+= am33xx-dt-quirks.o
> +endif

Won't this automatically be included on my Black that supports DT overlays?


> Some people really do though. As for increased risk
> I expect to see arguments instead of a statement.

No one is wasting your time with random arguments. Please keep your tone civil.

Regards,
Peter Hurley


>>>> 3. The factory is just as likely to use some other customer's image by accident,
>>>>   so you're just as likely to have the same failure rate if you have no test
>>>>   process at the factory.
>>>>
>>>> 4. If you're using offline programming, the image has to be tested after
>>>>   reflow anyway.
>>>>
>>>> IOW, your QA process will not change at all == same cost.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Peter Hurley
>>
> 
> Regards
> 
> â Pantelis
> 

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