Re: RFC: documentation of the autogroup feature [v2]

[Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)]

Hi Peter,

On 11/25/2016 05:04 PM, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 04:04:25PM +0100, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote:
>>>>        âââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ
>>>>        âFIXME                                                â
>>>>        âââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ
>>>>        âHow do the nice value of  a  process  and  the  nice â
>>>>        âvalue of an autogroup interact? Which has priority?  â
>>>>        â                                                     â
>>>>        âIt  *appears*  that the autogroup nice value is used â
>>>>        âfor CPU distribution between task groups,  and  that â
>>>>        âthe  process nice value has no effect there.  (I.e., â
>>>>        âsuppose two  autogroups  each  contain  a  CPU-bound â
>>>>        âprocess,  with  one  process  having nice==0 and the â
>>>>        âother having nice==19.  It appears  that  they  each â
>>>>        âget  50%  of  the CPU.)  It appears that the process â
>>>>        ânice value has effect only with respect to  schedulâ â
>>>>        âing  relative to other processes in the *same* autoâ â
>>>>        âgroup.  Is this correct?                             â
>>>>        âââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ
>>>
>>> Yup, entity nice level affects distribution among peer entities.
>>
>> Huh! I only just learned about this via my experiments while
>> investigating autogroups. 
>>
>> How long have things been like this? Always? (I don't think
>> so.) Since the arrival of CFS? Since the arrival of
>> autogrouping? (I'm guessing not.) Since some other point?
>> (When?)
> 
> Ever since cfs-cgroup, 

Okay. That begs the question still though.

> this is a fundamental design point of cgroups,
> and has therefore always been the case for autogroups (as that is
> nothing more than an application of the cgroup code).

Understood. 

>> It seems to me that this renders the traditional process
>> nice pretty much useless. (I bet I'm not the only one who'd 
>> be surprised by the current behavior.)
> 
> Its really rather fundamental to how the whole hierarchical things
> works.
> 
> CFS is a weighted fair queueing scheduler; this means each entity
> receives:
> 
>                w_i
>   dt_i = dt --------
> 	    \Sum w_j
> 
> 
> 		CPU
> 	  ______/ \______
> 	 /    |     |	 \
>       A     B     C     D
> 
> 
> So if each entity {A,B,C,D} has equal weight, then they will receive
> equal time. Explicitly, for C you get:
> 
> 
>                       w_C
>   dt_C = dt -----------------------
>             (w_A + w_B + w_C + w_D)
> 
> 
> Extending this to a hierarchy, we get:
> 
> 
> 		CPU
> 	  ______/ \______
> 	 /    |     |	 \
>       A     B     C     D
> 	           / \
> 		  E   F
> 
> Where C becomes a 'server' for entities {E,F}. The weight of C does not
> depend on its child entities. This way the time of {E,F} becomes a
> straight product of their ratio with C. That is; the whole thing
> becomes, where l denotes the level in the hierarchy and i an
> entity on that level:
> 
>                  l      w_g,i
>   dt_l,i = dt \Prod  ----------
>                 g=0  \Sum w_g,j
> 
> 
> Or more concretely, for E:
> 
>                       w_E
>   dt_1,E = dt_0,C -----------
>                   (w_E + w_F)
> 
>                         w_C               w_E
>          = dt ----------------------- -----------
>               (w_A + w_B + w_C + w_D) (w_E + w_F)
> 
> 
> And this 'trivially' extends to SMP, with the tricky bit being that the
> sums over all entities end up being machine wide, instead of per CPU,
> which is a real and royal pain for performance.

Okay -- you're really quite the ASCII artist. And somehow,
I think you needed to compose the mail in LaTeX. But thanks
for the detail. It's helpful, for me at least.

> Note that this property, where the weight of the server entity is
> independent from its child entities is a desired feature. Without that
> it would be impossible to control the relative weights of groups, and
> that is the sole parameter of the WFQ model.
> 
> It is also why Linus so likes autogroups, each session competes equally
> amongst one another.

I get it. But, the behavior changes for the process nice value are
undocumented, and they should be documented. I understand
what the behavior change was. But not yet when.

Cheers,

Michael

-- 
Michael Kerrisk
Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/
Linux/UNIX System Programming Training: http://man7.org/training/