Re: [PATCH V4 3/8] namespaces: expose ns instance serial numbers in proc

[Nicolas Dichtel]

Le 25/08/2014 18:13, Andy Lutomirski a Ãcrit :
> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 8:43 AM, Nicolas Dichtel
> <nicolas.dichtel@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > Le 25/08/2014 16:04, Andy Lutomirski a Ãcrit :
> >
> > > On Aug 25, 2014 6:30 AM, "Nicolas Dichtel" <nicolas.dichtel@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > CRIU wants to save the complete state of a namespace and then restore
> > > > > it.  For that to work, any information exposed to things in the
> > > > > namespace *cannot* be globally unique or unique per boot, since CRIU
> > > > > needs to arrange for that information to match whatever it was when
> > > > > CRIU saved it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > How are ifindex of network devices managed? These ifindexes are unique
> > > > per boot,
> > > > thus can change depending on the order in which netdev are created.
> > > > These ifindexes are unique per boot and exposed to userspace ...
> > >
> > > This does not appear to be true.
> > >
> > > $ sudo unshare --net
> > > # ip link add veth0 type veth peer name veth1
> > > # ip link
> > > 1: lo: <LOOPBACK> mtu 65536 qdisc noop state DOWN mode DEFAULT group
> > > default
> > >       link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
> > > 2: veth1: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST> mtu 1500 qdisc noop state DOWN mode
> > > DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
> > >       link/ether 06:0d:59:c7:a6:a8 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
> > > 3: veth0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST> mtu 1500 qdisc noop state DOWN mode
> > > DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
> > >       link/ether b2:5c:8b:f2:12:28 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
> > > # logout
> > > $ ip link
> > > 1: lo: <LOOPBACK,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN
> > >       link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
> > > 3: em1: <NO-CARRIER,BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP> mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast
> > > state DOWN qlen 1000
> > I've probably misunderstood what you're trying to say. ifindexes are unique
> > per
> > boot and per netns.
>
> I think we both misunderstood each other.  The ifindexes are unique
> *per netns*, which means that, if you're unprivileged in a netns,
> global information doesn't leak to you.  I think this is good.
Ok, I agree. I think audit daemons are always running under privileged users.

> > > Let me try again, with emphasis in the right place.
> > >
> > > I think that *code running in a namespace* has no business even
> > > knowing a unique identity of *that namespace* from the perspective of
> > > the host.
> > >
> > > In your example, if there's a veth device between netns A and netns B,
> > > then code *in netns A* has no business knowing the identity of its
> > > veth peer if its peer (B) is a sibling or ancestor.  It also IMO has
> > > no business knowing the identity of its own netns (A) other than as
> > > "my netns".
> >
> > I do not agree (see the example below).
> >
> >
> > > If A and B are siblings, then their parent needs to know where that
> > > veth device goes, but I think this is already the case to a sufficient
> > > extent today.
> >
> > I'm not aware of a hierarchy between netns. A daemon should be able to
> > got the full network configuration, even if it's started when this
> > configuration
> > is already applied, ie even if it doesn't know what happen before it starts.
>
> I don't know exactly which namespaces have an explicit hierarchy, but
> there is certainly a hierarchy of *user* namespaces, and network
> namespaces live in user namespaces, so they at least have somewhat of
> a hierarchy.
>
> > > I feel like this discussion is falling into a common trap of new API
> > > discussions.  Can one of you who wants this API please articulate,
> > > with a reasonably precise example, what it is that you want to do, why
> > > you can't easily do it already, and how this API helps?  I currently
> > > understand how the API creates problems, but I don't understand how it
> > > solves any problems, and I will NAK it (and I suspect that Eric will,
> > > too, which is pretty much fatal) unless that changes.
> >
> > What I'm trying to solve is to have full info in netlink messages sent by
> > the
> > kernel, thus beeing able to identify a peer netns (and this is close from
> > what
> > audit guys are trying to have). Theorically, messages sent by the kernel can
> > be
> > reused as is to have the same configuration. This is not the case with
> > x-netns
> > devices. Here is an example, with ip tunnels:
> >
> > $ ip netns add 1
> > $ ip link add ipip1 type ipip remote 10.16.0.121 local 10.16.0.249 dev eth0
> > $ ip -d link ls ipip1
> > 8: ipip1@eth0: <POINTOPOINT,NOARP> mtu 1480 qdisc noop state DOWN mode
> > DEFAULT group default
> >      link/ipip 10.16.0.249 peer 10.16.0.121 promiscuity 0
> >      ipip remote 10.16.0.121 local 10.16.0.249 dev eth0 ttl inherit pmtudisc
> > $ ip link set ipip1 netns 1
> > $ ip netns exec 1 ip -d link ls ipip1
> > 8: ipip1@tunl0: <POINTOPOINT,NOARP,M-DOWN> mtu 1480 qdisc noop state DOWN
> > mode DEFAULT group default
> >      link/ipip 10.16.0.249 peer 10.16.0.121 promiscuity 0
> >      ipip remote 10.16.0.121 local 10.16.0.249 dev tunl0 ttl inherit pmtudisc
> >
> > Now informations got with 'ip link' are wrong and incomplete:
> >   - the link dev is now tunl0 instead of eth0, because we only got an ifindex
> >     from the kernel without any netns informations.
> >   - the encapsulation addresses are not part of this netns but the user
> > doesn't
> >     known that (still because netns info is missing). These IPv4 addresses
> > may
> >     exist into this netns.
> >   - it's not possible to create the same netdevice with these infos.
>
> Aha.  That's a genuine problem.
>
> Perhaps we need a concept of which netnses should be able to see each other.
Yes, I agree. This is not required for all netns, only a subset of netns should
be able to see each other.

> I think I would be okay with a somewhat different outcome from your example:
>
> $ ip netns exec 1 ip -d link ls ipip1
> 8: ipip1@[unknown device in another namespace]:
> <POINTOPOINT,NOARP,M-DOWN> mtu 1480 qdisc noop state DOWN
>
> I think this outcome is mandatory if netns 1 lives in a subsidiary
> user namespace.
Yes.

> Certainly, if you do the 'ip link' in the original namespace, I agree
> that this should work.
And yes :)

I will update my previous proposal 
(http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.network/315933/focus=321753)
to allow to get an id for a peer netns only when the user namespace is the same.

> For most namespace types, this all works transparently, since
> everything has an real identity all the way up the hierarchy.  Network
> namespaces are different.
>
> I don't think that exposing serial numbers in /proc is a good
> solution, both for the reasons already described and because I don't
> think that iproute2 should need to muck around with /proc to function
A netlink API is probably enough. But it will help only for the network
problem, not for audit. I was hoping to find a common solution.

> correctly.  Eric, any clever ideas here?  Do we need fancier netlink
> messages for this?
>
> --Andy

--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at  http://www.tux.org/lkml/